Usa Thread

[Flashermac]

Lee in reply to an offer on 17 April 1861 of promotion to major general and command the Union defenses of Washington, D.C.: "Mr. [Francis] Blair, I look upon secession as anarchy. If I owned the four millions of slaves in the South I would sacrifice them all to the Union; but how can I draw my sword upon Virginia, my native state?"

 

After the war, Lee became president of Washington College (now Washington and Lee University). When a young Union veteran enrolled there. the outsider was largely ostracized. Lee heard about it and invited the former enemy to have dinner with his family. He also was heard to remark that the biggest mistake in his life was studying at West Point and following a military career. President Grant invited him to dine at the White House, and Lee accepted. It is ridiculous that the left is trying to turn him into a villain, just as it is that the Alt-Right are trying to use him for their own perverted agenda. Lee's views on the former slaves were little different from those of Lincoln or Grant.

[Steve]

...except Lincoln freed all 4 million slaves. Lee didn't want to. Lee being kind to a fellow white justifies acceptance? His view on slavery didn't change. At the end of day, these are monuments to people who did not want the USA as is now to be. Not all history is good history, no matter how large a part it played. The Lee family themselves

 

Lee's own ancestors don't have a problem with it either. So, Lee himself wouldn't have wanted a statue and his own descendents don't, then is it such a big deal?

 

http://www.newsweek.com/robert-e-lee-statue-charlottesville-donald-trump-white-nationalists-651208

"There's no place for that," Robert E. Lee V tells Newsweek, referring to the white supremacist protesters who carried torches and marched through Charlottesville on Friday. "There's no place for that hate."

The statue of Lee, which has stood in Charlottesville since 1924, is now at the center of a racially charged conflict that has gripped the city and resulted in one woman's death. In February, the local city council decided to remove the statue from the park, noting that for many people, such Confederate monuments are "painful reminders of the violence and injustice of slavery and other harms of white supremacy that are best removed from public spaces."

[Flashermac]

Don't forget Lincoln's own letter to Horace Greely in 1862: "If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union. I shall do less whenever I shall believe what I am doing hurts the cause, and I shall do more whenever I shall believe doing more will help the cause. I shall try to correct errors when shown to be errors; and I shall adopt new views so fast as they shall appear to be true views."

 

I suppose the reaction is because the statue has been there for 93 years and no one objected before. Even so, it would have been quietly moved had it not been for the KKK & Nazis showing up. It seems that many of the counter-protesters were themselves locals from Charlotteville.

 

 

p.s. If you want to get technical, Lincoln did not free all of the four million slaves. He only freed those in "rebel held" areas. Slaves in the border states that did not secede, plus those in areas already occupied by the Union army, did not become free until December 18, 1865, when the 13th Amendment was ratified. By then Lincoln had already been dead for 9 months.

[Steve]

I'm well aware of Lincoln's history. But at the end of the day we are playing 'what about this...' to justify keeping the monument of a man that he and his progeny don't want.

If we are also saying 'you can't have Lincoln if we can't have Lee'....I'm personally happy with neither and I'll throw in Jefferson or Washington.

Lastly, again, we are also talking about monuments that are of people who wanted to end the U.S. as we know it as opposed to Lincoln who wanted to keep it. Keeping it, no mater how they felt about slavery and blacks held the hope that blacks and others could eventually find equality. Lee and others the complete opposite.

This strange dichotomy of the same Americans telling the football player Colin Kaepernick to respect the American flag and upholding flags and people who uphold such flags that opposed the flag.

A bit hypocritical.

[Coss]

I see that in Boston, the nasties were out numbered by the anti nasties, by some thousands. Also I note that many of the nasties were wearing Trump hats.

 

Why not refuse to serve Trump hat wearing, dolts, at cafes and restaurants and florists? Don't let em into libraries, not that they'd want to go in one any way.

 

Let's see them after they've been discriminated against for wearing a dolt hat

 

Shoe, other foot...

[Flashermac]

Ironic that the south is condemned for trying to break up the country, while at the same time we have now this going on.

 

CalExit: California Attorney General Allows Secession Effort To Move Forward

[radioman]

I can see that happening. Not now, not maybe for a generation or three, but in time. Hawaii too in due course. Are there any other single states that could survive independent of the rest of what is today the US of A?

[Mekong]

T

Are there any other single states that could survive independent of the rest of what is today the US of A?

 

The 51st State AKA UK

 

[radioman]

I think the UK has always needed Merica. Before 1776 it was a considerable source of wealth and opportunity for a then nascent UK empire and since then I think UK dependency on Merica has only grown. Though I don't think the UK would ever agree to a union I could definitely imagine a somewhat dystopian future where the UK became to some degree another Puerto Rico.

 

I'm using the UK term somewhat flippantly. Obviously I refer only to the English, The Scottish, Welsh and N.I. barbarian hordes would of course spit their collective dummies and declare war. Twas ever so.

[Flashermac]

I can see that happening. Not now, not maybe for a generation or three, but in time. Hawaii too in due course. Are there any other single states that could survive independent of the rest of what is today the US of A?

 

 

New York state would like to get rid of New York City, but I can't see the city surviving on its own. Texas could probably do all right. Michigan would probably like to give Detroit to Canada, but the Canucks don't want it either.